joined the discussion. (100/02/16 16:34:55)
Doc Jay (Curt Bonk)
Doc Jay (100/02/16 16:37:20):
So, tonight we, in the P506 class at Indiana University, on
Applying Technology to Teaching and Learning, are honored to
have Ted Nellen with us to discuss Internet Filtering and
Censorship. We have discussed his article. Now it is time to
hear more about his views and experiences and to ask him
questions. Who wants to start? Ted--you want to jump in here?
Does anyone have a question or comment? That is enough for me
to start with.
ehman (Lee Ehman) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 16:44:04)
Doc Jay (100/02/16 16:47:56):
tnellen (Ted Nellen) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 16:50:10)
tnellen (100/02/16 16:51:01):
hi i'm here
tnellen (100/02/16 16:51:33):
give me a few to refresh the java and care to some chores..
cmscholt (Carolyn Scholten) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 16:51:46)
brminton (Brent Minton) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 16:52:57)
cmscholt (100/02/16 16:53:09):
Hi, I'm here too. Does this really work?
brminton (100/02/16 16:53:10):
ehman (100/02/16 16:54:04):
Hi everyone. Forgot I had to refresh, so I didn't know you were
Doc Jay (100/02/16 16:54:19):
Hi Ted, Carolyn, and Brent. Welcome to our first realtime
chat. I am your host(ess) tonight. Enjoy the great drinks I
cniehaus (Christine Niehaus) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 16:54:29)
cmscholt (100/02/16 16:54:39):
do we need to keep refreshing the window in order to see
brminton (100/02/16 16:55:23):
cniehaus (100/02/16 16:55:35):
tlonnema (Tina Lonneman) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 16:55:58)
doburton (Don Burton) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 16:56:29)
awatson (Amy Turner Watson) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 16:56:38)
brminton (100/02/16 16:56:47):
The room keeps growing Curt
doburton (100/02/16 16:57:09):
we have the carrots, who brought the veggie dip? don
lystephe (Lynn Stephenson) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 16:57:17)
Doc Jay (100/02/16 16:57:19):
Hello Tina. Ted will be right back. Yes, many people will be
branard (Brent Ranard) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 16:58:24)
cniehaus (100/02/16 16:58:44):
So, Amy, I guess this means I don't have to let you in the
building???????? Mrs. Mahuron
Doc Jay left the chat room. (100/02/16 16:58:48)
Doc Jay (Curt Bonk) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 16:58:57)
brminton (100/02/16 16:59:02):
Hey critical friend...glad you joined the discussion.
branard (100/02/16 16:59:36):
I just taught an adult computer class. glad to be here
tlonnema (100/02/16 16:59:39):
Hello! How exciting! As I try to read the responses my page
keeps jumping back to the start. How can I stop this?
awatson (Amy Turner Watson) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:00:00)
tnellen (100/02/16 17:00:20):
Hi everyone, I'm back. I've been writing down names so I might
address you correctly and
it sounded cool to say "I'm taking names."
Doc Jay (100/02/16 17:00:22):
Sorry, I left and came back, but my system was funky. Ted
should be right back (I hope). In the meantime, who wants to
pose a question or issue? We can discuss it before he jumps
doburton (100/02/16 17:00:24):
do not pass go, do not collect $ 200, otherwise, i don't know
doburton (100/02/16 17:00:47):
what's up Doc?
awatson (100/02/16 17:01:11):
Hit the stop refresing button. Then press it again when you get
caught up on reading.
branard (100/02/16 17:01:19):
What types of filter systems do you guys use at school?
tnellen (100/02/16 17:01:24):
maybe if you jump in sync with it..
brminton (100/02/16 17:01:36):
Ted just a quick personal question. Do you have any kids?
stutlerk (Karen Stutler) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:01:41)
lclynch (Lisa Yamagata-Lynch) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:01:43)
cmscholt (100/02/16 17:02:14):
When Ted gets back I guess my first question is what does he
really mean by a properly supervised classroom. As Lee and Curt
know, the webquest that Beth and I did meant using 17 computers
in 3 different places--2 classrooms, and the library! I hate to
think because of the logistics, I wasn't properly supervising!
and we did have a theft of the disk drive which has still not
shown up! Kids will be kids and we really cannot trust all of
them. They already know this, same as some adults! I don't think
this is really the issue.
doburton (100/02/16 17:02:20):
we use Intergate here at Salem. Controlled by people and their
viewpoints on what are bad sites.
tnellen (100/02/16 17:02:35):
i have a 28 yearold female who is a k-5 teacher, a 14 year old
femal and a 6 year old boy
tnellen (100/02/16 17:02:45):
i'm a bad typist, BTW
brminton (100/02/16 17:03:13):
Good point Carolyn
mikelley (Mike Kelley) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:03:38)
tlonnema (100/02/16 17:04:00):
Doc Jay (100/02/16 17:04:03):
You can control the refresh rate when you enter--lower it and it
won't scroll so much (I think). You may have to exit and do
brminton (100/02/16 17:04:11):
Is your 6 year old unsupervised on the internet at home?
Doc Jay left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:04:20)
tnellen (100/02/16 17:04:21):
carolyn, you shouldn't feel the responsiblity of someone elses
tnellen (100/02/16 17:04:45):
that site should be supervised, there are adults in the room?
it's the law.
mikelley (100/02/16 17:04:55):
Hey there, Mike Kelley here from the "Small Town" of Seymour,
brminton (100/02/16 17:05:07):
Even innocent appearing sites can have adult natured material.
Doc Jay (Curt Bonk) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:05:07)
zbarrett (Zoma Barrett) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:05:12)
cniehaus (100/02/16 17:05:41):
Where are you Zoma?
brminton (100/02/16 17:05:49):
Isn't that right Zoma?
doburton (100/02/16 17:06:09):
aren't projectors good for mistakes Zoma?
brminton (100/02/16 17:06:50):
Ted I forget...what grade level do you teach?
tnellen (100/02/16 17:06:56):
6 year old rarely goes on
he hits the sports sites off my computer page and his page is of
fire trucks and fire houses.
he loves the "fire guys"
now if he were to do a search for "fire guys" well something
strange may pop up
now if he were to do a search of the net for
branard (100/02/16 17:07:12):
Our web filter seems to have a mind of its own. It doesn't seem
to be consistant. What about the new sites that pop up everyday?
awatson (100/02/16 17:07:27):
The intergate system only lets you set a rating of what to block
out. It is not very good at keeping out song lyrics, and other
non-academic sites. Also, a lot of research is filtered becuase
it might mention guns, explosives, ect. things that are part of
a historical event. Earlier this week, I was searchjing for info
on german culture, and I could not get anywhere because most of
the sites mentioned beer. They were all denied. This is just an
cmscholt (100/02/16 17:07:49):
Two teachers, myself and the lang arts teacher were moving
between both of our rooms and the media center. Of course, we had
adults running the media center, but they are doing their jobs
and aren't necessarily teaching our lesson.
tnellen (100/02/16 17:08:15):
i teach high school, good point.
we hand out condoms here to our 3400 studnets if they ask
we teach all the health related issues.
many of our kids are parents.
lystephe (100/02/16 17:08:37):
I am not sure what we use at ICMS, but I feel better about using
the internet in my classroom now. I usually only have a
students in my classroom at one time, so supervision isn't
usually a problem. However, before we had an internet filtering
system a few of my students still opened inappropriate sites.
Even though the students may be supervised well when they are
with me, other teacher don't have a clue. THe students know who
these teachers are and they take advantage of the lack of
Doc Jay (100/02/16 17:08:49):
Ok, who is going to tell Ted their views on this matter? He
might like to know what you said in your reading reactions and
discussions, right Brent? (Both Brents...) (By the way, Mike,
the last online chat I had with a class from the Univ of
Cincinatti, they ended with words from "I was born in a small
brminton (100/02/16 17:08:54):
If you take the time and look these sites up ahead of time, then
the sites can be unblocked. Just turn you url into Bonita or
mikelley (100/02/16 17:09:23):
Ted, How are things in the big Apple! I enjoyed your article
on "Internet Censorship is Both a Menace and a Nuisance" I
agree with you! We are hired to teach not to be police officers!
tnellen (100/02/16 17:09:23):
carolyn, they don't have to be teaching just "paying attention."
that's all. works. and when you see a crowd gather, well..
doburton (100/02/16 17:09:32):
Ted, how do you address students who knowingly make mistakes and
entertain "bad" sites after they have been told. Do they
continue the assignment or are they denied opportunity.
tnellen (100/02/16 17:11:10):
Looking the sites up ahead of time is impossible. part of
research is discovery and if i provide all links and don't allow
them outside the perameters, then learning isn't happening,
really, problem solving, constructivism....
brminton (100/02/16 17:11:20):
Ted...my point on the article is that you can't be expected to
supervise everyone at all times. Kids will be kids. If you
don't think middle school kids will try and look up inappropriate
sites, then you are mistaken. If not for curiosity sake.
tnellen (100/02/16 17:11:27):
tnellen (100/02/16 17:12:28):
thank you mikelley
brminton (100/02/16 17:13:24):
Impossible? We only have 41 minutes of class period so student
use of computers must be structured. If you allowed wide open
searching, then students would never find anything. One teacher
here at Salem had a student quote a personal web page of someone
in Texas in a research paper. Appropriate. I don't think so.
mikelley (100/02/16 17:13:49):
Curt, I am having a hard time keeping up with the chat here. My
window does not scroll for some reason
tnellen (100/02/16 17:13:57):
Don, i always try to continue. once inawhile an admin may get
involveds and play hard ball. unfortunate to my way of thinking.
education works far better. repeat offenders, rarely. more
criminal repeat offenders in jails.
tlonnema (100/02/16 17:14:40):
If schools didn't make use of the available filters wouldn't it
seem to the pubic that they are not being responsible by trying
to protect students from "bad" sites?
mikelley left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:14:45)
cmscholt (100/02/16 17:15:00):
Brent, you are right. I haven't met a middle school boy who
would be embarrassed to go to an imappropriate site- in fact they
want to be the first to tell everyone else--just a couple of
weeks ago it happened to a kid who when to poop.com
He couldn't go past the first page, but that was not
appropriate and he was probably just fooling around! Now he is
mikelley (Mike Kelley) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:15:01)
brminton (100/02/16 17:15:09):
Also Ted. Just because your school gives out condoms, does that
mean that you promote sex in your classroom. I think passing out
condoms is a preventive method. It is not teaching youngsters to
have sex. So why not use filters as a preventive method.
zbarrett (100/02/16 17:15:22):
I'm not so sure that Ted isn't right in what he is saying. I
read another article by David A. Splitt in eSchool News. He too
was discussing students using the Internet and our responsibility
as educators. In his article he states that teaching students to
use computers and connecting them to the internet without also
teaching them about the basic rules and laws that apply to this
technology would be like teaching them to drive a car without
introducing them to stop signs and speed limits. This makes
sense to me!
tnellen (100/02/16 17:15:25):
Brent, part of education is play, playing with ideas, toying with
anotion. circulate the room, and you can shut the computers off
and have aconference, too. time outs are fine.
stutlerk (Karen Stutler) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:16:55)
lystephe (100/02/16 17:16:59):
I teach middle school, and I also think it is best ot sturucture
your internet lessons and not allow unrestricted searches. The
students get too destracted if you don't do it that way. I
don't know what I would do in high school though. They should
be allowed more freedom.
brminton (100/02/16 17:17:05):
Ted have you ever had to give individual instruction. Middle
school kids will try and divert your attention.
Doc Jay (100/02/16 17:17:38):
Let me tell you who is online Ted:
Lee Ehman, Professor
Lisa Yamagata Lynch, TICKIT GA
Curt Bonk (me)
(a few more are coming at 8:30 or so)
Mike--you can exit and go in and change your refresh rate in VU
tnellen (100/02/16 17:18:41):
actually in some of the health classes sex is taught, andn in
AIDS lessons state reqyuirements I think we get into it there
I don't think we are saying allow the kids to spend all day on
porn site, it may be hit, but it won't be for very long. and
kids aren't the problem , the teachers and custodians are the
mikelley left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:18:45)
zbarrett left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:18:50)
mikelley left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:18:50)
tlonnema (100/02/16 17:19:28):
I'm also having trouble keeping up with the chat.
lystephe (100/02/16 17:19:41):
I think computer time-outs are great for misuse of the
zbarrett (Zoma Barrett) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:19:49)
tnellen (100/02/16 17:20:28):
i started career in middle school. the room design is crucial..i
insist horseshoe shape and that way i have total visibility.
cniehaus (100/02/16 17:20:30):
So, Ted, if you continue to allow students to enter the "wrong"
sites, does that mean you are giving the other students the same
permission? What happens when a student leaves the school and
tells family and friends what they looked at during class. What
image does that give to our school community?
Doc Jay left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:20:34)
branard (100/02/16 17:20:38):
I think a WebQuest is a good way to limit the searches that
students can make while they are woring on a project.
cmscholt left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:20:39)
mikelley (Mike Kelley) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:20:56)
mikelley (100/02/16 17:21:18):
back again folks
brminton (100/02/16 17:21:21):
AIDS and sex ed is being taught in the appropriate place--health
class. But that's not our argument Ted. My argument is that you
are comparing apples to oranges here. Just because you pass out
condoms doesn't mean that internet filtering is a bad thing.
stutlerk (100/02/16 17:21:29):
not sure why people think taking the computer away as a tool
(computer timeout) is good - do we take pen/paper away if they
draw obscene pix?
Doc Jay (Curt Bonk) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:21:34)
doburton (100/02/16 17:21:40):
ted, i have sixth graders. they are the problem. they are the
ones trying to push the envelope. i deal with inappropriate
sites individual basis and have a one strike rule. one strike
and you are still in the game. two strikes (second offense) they
are out. giving them to make a good decision
tlonnema (100/02/16 17:22:21):
doburton (100/02/16 17:22:26):
doc, where do you sell the candy bars?
cmscholt (Carolyn Scholten) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:22:40)
Doc Jay (100/02/16 17:22:44):
Glad to have you back Mike (Homer...shopman!) You all can
change your refresh rate so it does not scroll so much like Mike
and I have done.
tlonnema (100/02/16 17:23:02):
I agree about the Webquests. Especially for younger students.
tnellen (100/02/16 17:23:09):
Christine, I don't let them continue, i watch, they sit in clear
view, why would i let them repeat, i told you we don't have
repeat, and to tell you the truth with 13 labs of 34 computers in
each we have fewer than 4% hits and half of those are when kids
aren't in the building. most schools keep track of this and
look. the problem is if TIME or Newsweek actually presented the
stats, most folks would be shocked and wonder about the noiise.
brminton (100/02/16 17:23:18):
I take the obscene picture that they drew away and turn it into
the appropriate people.
zbarrett left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:24:29)
tnellen (100/02/16 17:24:31):
don as long as they know the rules, fine. we all have limnits,
we share them with the class and that's it. good, don.
brminton (100/02/16 17:24:48):
Describe the type of community that you have. Do they agree that
internet filtering is a bad thing? Do they think that their sons
or daughters should be allowed to look up anything?
tlonnema left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:25:16)
awatson (100/02/16 17:25:30):
What if the appropriate people don't do squat with the porn? At
our high school, the obscene picture would be given back to the
kid with a warning. That doesn't do much discouraging.
zbarrett (Zoma Barrett) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:25:58)
tlonnema (Tina Lonneman) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:26:52)
brminton (100/02/16 17:26:56):
You are correct. And so if you had a problem with a kid looking
up an inappropriate site without filters, then the same problem
would occur--nothing. So filtering in this case is on your side.
doburton (100/02/16 17:27:11):
welcome back zoma, zack was flexing his muscles again at baseball
branard (100/02/16 17:27:19):
zoma - is your chat room working ok?
tlonnema (100/02/16 17:27:47):
I can't get my refresh time to change?? Help!
mikelley (100/02/16 17:27:47):
I am still getting used to the refresh rate of this chat room.
I have missed some of the discussion. Ted, I teach middle
school age children grades 7 and 8. I believe it is up to the
community where you teach to decide if filtering is a need. I
also enjoy having a small class size.
stutlerk (100/02/16 17:27:50):
My question is... that we would not take away the tool of
pen/paper, but we tend to take away the tool of computer (as if
they really don't need it to make it in school)?
Doc Jay (100/02/16 17:28:15):
Good pt Lynn on the issue of middle school and high school. How
much control should kids at diff ages and grades get?
Ya, Brent, I agree with Amy and I wonder about appropriate
people too--is that the principal or the art teacher?
Also, good pt for Karen about paper and pencil. (Don--tonight,
of course, is girl scout cookies. The Quick Curt Bars can be
ordered on the Web: http://quickcurt.candybars.com
zbarrett (100/02/16 17:28:28):
I teach in a computer lab every day. Over the year I have spent
many hours with the students. I have honestly had only had two
students the entire year who tried to get to an inappropriate
cniehaus (100/02/16 17:28:29):
Ted, my comment was in reference to you saying that those who
entered forbidden sites would be allowed to continue use even
after being told not to. I understand when a student makes the
mistake the first time, but something more than discussion should
be done after a second offense. If those students wish to
continue Internet useage, let them do it at home with parental
brminton (100/02/16 17:28:56):
Mistakes do happen. I did see a print-out of "banned" sites that
were hit during a months time. They happened during the day--not
at night. Most of these hits weren't "mistakes".
tnellen (100/02/16 17:29:11):
what is happening here is you are missing what has happened.
filtering has you speaking of one thing, porn. what it does it
prevent teachers from teaching. don't focus on the porn, be
proactive and not reactive. teach a lesson, supervise, engage,
and you redirect the energy.
doburton (100/02/16 17:29:48):
ted, so you essentially lose some students who are repeat
offenders, then you have lost the education that you had hoped
from the beginning. then what? redirect back to encyclopedias?
tnellen (100/02/16 17:29:59):
consider the diff between:
angelfire and anglefire
or whitehouse.gov and whitehouse.com
Doc Jay (100/02/16 17:30:51):
1. Exit the system
2. look in the left of your screen to change chat settings.
3. click on it.
4. change it to 75 or 90 seconds
5. submit it
6. choose an avatar perhaps in the process like Homer and I did.
7. come back since we will miss ya.
branard (100/02/16 17:31:16):
Ted- It is impossible for me to properly supervise 25 students in
a poorly designed lab.
brminton (100/02/16 17:31:36):
Ted I do that already. But, when you have 25 kids doing searches
and your room isn't set up "perfect" then it is hard to see every
computer. And no its not only porn. We had students last year
who went on-line and printed out material on how to make a
bomb--by the way this student did make a bomb and lost two
fingers in an explosion.
branard left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:31:38)
Doc Jay (100/02/16 17:31:57):
I meant look to the upper right. Sorry
cmscholt left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:31:58)
tnellen (100/02/16 17:32:25):
one kid lost privileges for a year, came back the next, never a
problem. also we keepthese guys busy, trust me. they are looking
for extra time to do the work. they do moos and chats as part of
our work, like this, they go to work and work on computers, this
is not a novelty for them so they don't abuse it pewrhaps and we
are a title one school lots of poor kids.
brminton (100/02/16 17:32:44):
Exactly Ted...whitehouse.com and whitehouse.gov...definitely an
example of why a filter is a good thing. A filter wouldn't
allow whitehouse.com to work, but would allow whitehouse.gov.
zbarrett left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:32:55)
branard (Brent Ranard) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:33:12)
cmscholt (Carolyn Scholten) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:33:15)
mikelley (100/02/16 17:33:35):
I do not like the idea of the administration knowing if I have
hit a bad site or not from my teacher computer. How else or
should I say when....will I have time to do the work besides at
home in the evenings. I have hit plenty of sites all on
accident in trying to search for appropriate sites for class.
tlonnema left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:34:02)
mikelley left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:34:04)
mikelley (Mike Kelley) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:34:39)
tnellen (100/02/16 17:34:45):
yes and bomb stuff is taught in science classes, in the libray,
from the US govt at Pueblo Colo,
Part of a democracy is access to info and then the community must
education not prohibit. only makes it more inviting as you are
You see we don't have a problem, our logs show it, and some of
the most restrictive schools in NYC have high incident. it
becomes a game then and the kids will win.
mikelley (100/02/16 17:34:59):
ok, back again set it at 90 now
Doc Jay (100/02/16 17:35:11):
Nice quote Ted:
"don't focus on the porn, be proactive and not reactive. teach a
lesson, supervise, engage, and you redirect the energy."
Yes, this notion of teaching energy--it is an important one.
Where do we focus our time and energies when teaching? We only
have so many minutes and goals in the day...then again, perhaps
Ted has had one too many Quick Curt Bars.
brminton (100/02/16 17:35:26):
Mike...I think your administration would understand that you were
trying to do research for you class. A little integrity involved
here. Brownstown administration would be ok with this I think,
if your views are the same as theirs.
zbarrett (100/02/16 17:35:32):
Brent, the student you are talking about printed that stuff out
at home. I found it when they were looking at the print out in
my room. It was not done at school.
cniehaus (100/02/16 17:35:39):
I agree, Ted. Teach a lesson with a list of possible sites known
to be related. That still gives them freedom to choose
sites...just not as many.
Zoma, I admire what you do with the kids. And if I take my kids
to the lab, I would love to take them to a horseshoe shaped lab
with a full view of screens. But as you know, not all of us have
that opportunity. That, of course, is not your fault. Maybe in
the future, this will be a possibility schoolwide.
mikelley (100/02/16 17:36:21):
Ted, Honestly, I have only had three students in the last five
years try to acess a bad site. Those students had their
internet priveliges taken away for the rest of the year
lystephe (100/02/16 17:36:30):
Don, I think all research assignments should already contain
print research requirements. If the students loose internet
privileges then the students should be ready to finish with
these print resources. You could also have them use electronic
tnellen (100/02/16 17:37:14):
mike is correct and that is becoming an issue.
unions and such.
then words like liability crop up and all of a sudden everyone is
Mike Godwin has spoken to us a couple of times on this very
matter. it's as clear as mud.
but ACLU never loses on these matters.
brminton (100/02/16 17:37:24):
Zoma...there were some things printed out here at school.
Some of these things were printed out at school.
zbarrett left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:37:41)
cniehaus (100/02/16 17:38:09):
Ted, in science, we teach reactions. We do not label them as
bombs, and we don't tell the students how to construct them.
But, you are right. All the kids really have to do is watch the
news or read the paper. They don't have to look up everything on
Doc Jay (100/02/16 17:38:23):
We are 30-40 minutes into this. I am really enjoying this, now
that my screen is no longer refreshing every 10 seconds. I
wonder if someone wants to posts more questions or recap what
has been discussed so far. Lee (and Lisa), we have not heard
much from you.
Anyone still having problems in the refresh rate, can call me at
812-335-1746. Ask for Quick Curt.
tnellen (100/02/16 17:38:30):
what is a Quick Curt Bar??
tlonnema (Tina Lonneman) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:38:32)
mikelley (100/02/16 17:38:33):
Brminton......yes, brownstown administration is ok with
it.....however, I did work for an inner city school corp. in
Ohio that would put a letter in your personnel file if you were
caught hitting an illegal site
zbarrett (Zoma Barrett) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:39:32)
brminton (100/02/16 17:39:42):
Just because there is access to these things out there elsewhere,
doesn't mean it is right. Just as passing out the condoms
doesn't promote sex...it acts as a preventive method. The filter
acts as a preventive method. If your kids aren't hitting the bad
sites, then the filter is just there--sort of like a security
ehman left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:40:29)
stutlerk left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:41:03)
tnellen (100/02/16 17:41:27):
One other matter about teacher searches. within the school there
should be a tech committee which supervises the training and
putting outnof facts and info on internet use. Community again.
nothing should be asurprise, everything open..
doburton (100/02/16 17:41:36):
okay lynn, i can't be two places at once. upstairs library with
online catalogs and downstairs internet lab. no assistants to
help supervise. your idea makes sense, just not too practical in
my situation. i guess i can't have the best of both worlds.
cmscholt (100/02/16 17:41:46):
Ted, I am interested in knowing if your students have an AUP to
sign, and what is the reaction of the parents on the filtering
issue. Does your school have a filter, you just disagree with it?
stutlerk left the chat room. (100/02/16 17:41:59)
lclynch (100/02/16 17:42:01):
So, if the kids can print stuff at home why all the fuss at
school. I guess this is an extreme question. I don't mean to
expand a teachers job beyond school, but what do you all think
about educating parents what is appropriate Internet use and what
is not. Would kids become smarter Internet users if they were
trained to be one both at school and home?
ehman (Lee Ehman) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 17:42:37)
brminton (100/02/16 17:42:51):
We have lots of things that sound great in theory. Boy wouldn't
it be great if all theories worked perfectly. Communism is great
in theory. But in reality we have seen that it doesn't work.
Glad that some of you are great theorists who can keep an eye on
everyone in your class at all times.
tnellen (100/02/16 17:43:12):
brent, in prevewnting one kind of search you damage hundreds of
others. the filter is not smart. breast cancer is an overused
example but it is perfect.
doburton (100/02/16 17:43:16):
mike, i bet you are glad you are now at brownstown. now your file
won't be filled with a bunch of junk letters because they
"thought" you were abusing the technology.
Doc Jay (100/02/16 17:43:35):
unless you go to the Web.
You cannot get one.
But don't be bummed.
Quick Curt are only available in Indiana.
(No tax yet on the Internet.)
Of course, if you searched for Quick Curt Bars, you would likely
land on a porn site.
tlonnema (100/02/16 17:43:40):
doburton (100/02/16 17:44:51):
ted, yes common terms are problems, there are ways to use medical
terms to get the information you are looking for. good language
arts or english lesson on vocab words.
branard (100/02/16 17:45:06):
Hey Lee - I always knew you were goofy.
brminton (100/02/16 17:45:22):
I can see both sides of the argument here. But let's be realists
and know that kids will push the envelope if given the chance.
My classes in health just put together a newsletter that involved
such topics as drugs, bulimia and sleeping disorders. When we
found a site that they wanted to use we just had it unblocked.
lystephe (100/02/16 17:45:28):
I think parents would be much more comfortable about their
students using the internet at school and even posting their
pictures and work on the web if they were better educated about
appropriate internet use.
cniehaus (100/02/16 17:46:01):
We are all talking from personal experience. We don't always
hear about the kids who work well on the Internet. But we do
always hear about the kids who mess up. As educators we always
get criticized for negative outcomes in our job. And this is
probably where my comments stem.
tnellen (100/02/16 17:46:19):
carolyn, good question.
we have an aup and a permission slip the kids sign. they make a
contract with us and parents are involved. No parent ahs ever
declined hir child access. and in NYC with all of our cultures,
we do not have a filter, we as a school chose not to have one.
other schools do use one.
doburton (100/02/16 17:46:20):
branard, who are you calling goofy. i thought i saw you at
disneyland myself one time he he he
tlonnema (100/02/16 17:46:21):
I finally got the rate changed - much better but I far behind.
I agree we need to filter. Although I was frustrated yesterday
when I tried to check my yahoo email. It's sensored? I guess
they OVHS is having trouble with students sending email at
brminton (100/02/16 17:47:11):
I agree Chris. We always here the negatives. So let's prevent
the negatives from happening.
lclynch (100/02/16 17:48:08):
Well, I am not curious. How many of you (if you have a chance to
answer my question) think that for parents the Internet is like a
black hole and they are unsure how it can affect their kids? Do
any of you think that there are parents who will now allow their
child to have access to the Internet at school because of
branard (100/02/16 17:48:26):
The school board has ruled here at OVHS - no e-mail or chats for
mikelley (100/02/16 17:49:15):
I am catching up here.........having some trouble.....but
keeping up with the chat!
brminton (100/02/16 17:49:23):
Not one parent has denied the use of the internet? You live in a
really liberal community though. Salem isn't quite so liberal.
tnellen (100/02/16 17:49:28):
we don't need to keep an eye on all of them all the time. when
they are, not if, busy they aren't a problem. idleness is not
good in a computer lab. my kids are reading lit, composing
essays, collaborating. they are mixed around. the activity
prevents it most of the time, no time.
cmscholt (100/02/16 17:50:24):
yes,Tina- I have a mailcity account which I cannot access from
school anymore. Also, while working on our webquest, the kids had
to contact hotels. They were not able to use e-mail. I was a
little bummed about this, but of course we had one student who
was taking advantage of it (using improper language) the week
before our corp.put out the filter.
doburton (100/02/16 17:50:46):
some parents will not allow their kids to get out of salem
because of the fear of crazy drivers on the road, no kidding.
yes, lisa i would have to say we have our share of those parents
who are ignorant of the internet,still. if you can believe it.
Doc Jay (100/02/16 17:51:11):
I sorta agree with Brent M.--let's be realists here. Isn't
everything we select in our classrooms a way of filtering
information. The internet is the largest library in history.
Every library I have ever been to has been filtered by the
librarians and community members and patrons and so forth.
Every K-12 class I enter has books inside it that were decided
by someone else to be important. Isn't this debate simply about
the degree of filtering/censorship we should allow...not whether
or not to censor? I think even my selection of a class
dictionary or course reader or insertion of a link to an online
glossary involves some degree of filtering and censorship.
There is so much out there, what harm does censorship cause--at
least those hitting it as a problem in research are doing
something innovative in their teaching.
zbarrett (100/02/16 17:51:18):
Chris, I think you're right. We spend time looking at the
negatives. There are a lot of great kids out there who act
responsibly. Why should they always have to put up with
restrictions placed on things because a few kids aren't behaving
as they should?
brminton (100/02/16 17:51:54):
Our tech person has blocked out chat and e-mail too. Lisa, I do
think you are right. Some have no idea that their kids will find
anything bad. We had a student this year who found sex jokes and
printed them out. Yes they got through the filter. But when his
dad came in because of his ISS, dad blamed the teachers. It was
our fault for not having this site blocked.
cniehaus (100/02/16 17:52:01):
Lisa, from talking to my students, I think many parents use the
computer (games, Internet, whatever) as a baby-sitter. Many have
no idea of the available sites. I would love to find an
efficient way to educate parents on its uses, but how? Would
they come to classes? Would they read the articles in the paper?
Some would, but not all. In fact, in our community, I think most
tnellen (100/02/16 17:52:09):
please, NYC is not a liberal town by any stretch of the
imagination. it only looks that way. the power here and the
cultures are very conservative. these parents from some of these
cultures are very sacary. we have to be very careful how we
speak on parents night for fear we lose a child or that child
gets a severe beating.
lystephe (100/02/16 17:53:38):
Idleness isn't good anywhere in a classroom. Even though I am
happy to have my security blanket, a filtering system, the best
deterrent is a well structured lesson.
brminton (100/02/16 17:55:20):
Must be pretty liberal if every "parent" signs the permission
slip without any questions. And must be fairly liberal school
community if they think it is ok to pass out condoms. I know if
we tried to pass out condoms here there would be an uproar.
branard (100/02/16 17:56:01):
I can not say that I am happy with our filtering system. I can
say that it gives me a greater feeling of security when I have a
lesson dealing with the Internet. It is the better of two evils.
tnellen (100/02/16 17:56:26):
i was in one school today, a high school and they have the
filter. we had the school lift the filter on some sites esp
geocities which the teacher of five classes was using in her
english classes. well in more than 50% of the cases the kids
were blocked out at some point because of the filter even though
geocities was unblocked. too many kids lost their work for me to
worry about a security blanket. it hinders education.
brminton (100/02/16 17:56:46):
I agree Lynn. But my students were doing searches for stadiums
in the world. And innocently enough a student hit a site that
was "about stadiums", but the background was a nude picture.
brminton (100/02/16 17:58:39):
Come on Ted. The filter doesn't hinder education that much.
Let's quit worrying about the internet and use books then.
People are losing valuable skills if all they use is the
internet. Yes...more interesting than searching through a book.
But let's quit thinking that filtering hinders education.
doburton (100/02/16 17:58:41):
branard, that just may sum things up. it is the lesser of two
evils. with middle school kids, i feel filtering is a must,
but, don't always agree with what is filtered. so i do a little
promting and use kid friendly search engines that direct the
websites for kids a lot better.
cmscholt (100/02/16 17:58:53):
Our principal is thinking of using a curriculum that teaches
abstinence, so I know the condom thing would not even be
considered. However, I also only had one parent refusing to sign
the AUP, but changed her mind, not even a phone call.
branard (100/02/16 17:58:57):
Ted - we taught for years without the Internet and got along just
fine. It does not hinder education.
cniehaus (100/02/16 17:59:12):
Ted, how much time do you spend teaching your kids about valid
Net resources? And at what level is it first taught?
tnellen (100/02/16 17:59:23):
and the largest selling sports illustrated with swimsuits which
aren't swimsuits anymore most are painted on.
oh but that is okay, money is being made, capitalism and all that
calvin Klein, DKNY, and those soaps are real clean, right?
Doc Jay (100/02/16 17:59:36):
We have been chatting for one hour. We have 14 people online.
The chat is getting long. I am sure Ted's fingers are getting
tired. Let's try to hang on until 9:15. Sound ok? Anyone vote
longer or shorter???
Ted--do you want to summarize your present position in a few
sentences so they know where you are coming from?
Anyone want to summarize the discusion?
tnellen (100/02/16 18:00:15):
what doesn't hinder education?
doburton (100/02/16 18:00:43):
good point branard, the internet is ONLY a tool, can't we all
just get along.
tnellen (100/02/16 18:01:51):
we are constantly evaluating resources just as we evaluate any
resource. I have planty of grammar books which are wrong in
places and contract other grammar books.
when taught, when they are babies, what to trust and why.
question everything from the time you are born until you die and
tlonnema (100/02/16 18:03:09):
I think we could debate endlessly. Many good points but I still
vote for filtering. I have to sign out--- my dogs can't wait
any longer, they need a walk. Have a good evening.
cniehaus (100/02/16 18:03:09):
Ted, we as teachers do NOT have to decide if students can watch
Soaps or not. Sure they get worse every year, but filtering
Soaps is not one of our many jobs.
brminton (100/02/16 18:03:15):
Ted you said that filtering hinders education. Filtering
doesn't hinder it. It is lack of preparation on the teacher's
tnellen (100/02/16 18:03:37):
webucation is the best filter and everyone should be ever
vigilant, pay attention. filtering is not cure to the cause of
needing a filter, community and education should rule the day.
rcory (Rebecca Cory) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 18:03:42)
Doc Jay left the chat room. (100/02/16 18:03:50)
brminton (100/02/16 18:04:07):
Amy are you still there? By the way Chris new you weren't coming
so disregard her first comment.
awatson (100/02/16 18:04:56):
YEs, I am a very slow typer. And I cleared my last message.
brminton (100/02/16 18:04:57):
Again great in theory. Let's all become communists. Theory
doesn't work in reality.
branard (100/02/16 18:05:08):
I agree Brent - If you prepare you can find the sites you need
for almost anytype of research regardless of the filter
cniehaus (100/02/16 18:05:56):
But how do you know if it is a person making up credentials, or
if he is a reknowned scientist? Of course, that is true of
books, too. But it is harder to get things published in hardback
than it is on the Net.
mikelley (100/02/16 18:06:32):
Curt, I think there comes a point in time that you as the
teacher have to put your trust in the student
doburton (100/02/16 18:06:32):
curt, i need to get home and make practice plans for my pitchers
for baseball tomorrow. really enjoyed the online discussion.
thanks for the time. back to the real world. see you in a few
weeks here in salem at the workshop.
Doc Jay (Curt Bonk) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 18:06:37)
brminton (100/02/16 18:06:45):
Ted you are having a hard time convincing us with what little
evidence you present. Kids are kids no matter what. They are
still going to be curious.
tnellen (100/02/16 18:06:51):
actually it does hinder it. I have to teach AIDS lessons and the
net is the absolute best resource. Consider the fact that many
schools couldn't access the Starr report. Science classes are
constantly hampered as the have to mention body parts. Filters
are too balck and white adn very weak on grey or Art intell
branard (100/02/16 18:07:01):
that is why you have to know how to evaluate a site. Teach the
kids this also
doburton left the chat room. (100/02/16 18:07:02)
brminton (100/02/16 18:07:59):
Mike I agree that there has to be some trust. I don't think any
of us disagree with you here. But I'm also going to say that
filters still help.
tlonnema (100/02/16 18:07:59):
Ted- Thanks for taking time to chat.
Doc Jay (100/02/16 18:08:19):
Ok, sounds great. Why not make some closing statements and
thank Ted for being here and exchange emails or such and call it
(I tried to create a chat on IU vs. Purdue in men's hoops, but I
got an error message and that is not a good sign.)
tnellen (100/02/16 18:08:20):
no we don't filter the soaps nor should we, the point is thjat
the kids in schools have more supervision than at home at work in
cafes at a friends house unsupervised. so where do they get
these urls they go so quickly to?
Doc Jay (100/02/16 18:08:45):
Thanks to all the participants here tonight. This went great I
rcory (Rebecca Cory) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 18:08:51)
cmscholt (100/02/16 18:09:08):
I agree with both Brents--and it does take alot of planning!
zbarrett (100/02/16 18:09:29):
Ted, I agree with you in that we must teach our kids to evaluate
internet resources just as we teach them to evaluate other
sources of information. I know I am in the minority in this
discussion, but I am not convinced filtering is what we should be
tnellen (100/02/16 18:09:30):
you are correct about the endless discussion this could and has
cniehaus (100/02/16 18:09:53):
All good points. I still think I am just looking at the
negatives. And therefore, I vote for a filtering system. Papers
to grade and assignments to write. Bye.
tnellen (100/02/16 18:09:58):
Thanks everyone, this was fun.
will their be a transcript available jay?
lclynch left the chat room. (100/02/16 18:10:01)
lystephe (100/02/16 18:10:15):
Thanks for chatting with us.
branard (100/02/16 18:10:34):
I have enjoyed listening to your point of view Ted. Thank you
for taking the time to talk with us "Hoosiers"
brminton (100/02/16 18:10:43):
I would think that a city like New York would have tons of
information about AIDS from local resources--the net provides the
best information. I really find that hard to believe when your
health professionals and other sex education resources are
available. Those things would have the best information. I
think you are missing the boat here by thinking only in the terms
of the internet. Other resources are out there.
lystephe left the chat room. (100/02/16 18:10:45)
mikelley (100/02/16 18:11:00):
bye, everyone.....I enjoyed this!
tnellen (100/02/16 18:12:05):
told you i was abad typist:
I enjoyed this and hope to hear form many of you via the net.
brminton (100/02/16 18:13:05):
Thanks Ted and feel free to continue the chat via e-mail. I feel
pretty strong about this issue as if you couldn't tell. I will
say once again. Filtering acts as a security blanket, not as a
hindrance. It is a hindrance if you don't prepare for class. A
good lesson plan is prepration.
cmscholt (100/02/16 18:13:11):
Thanks for your time, Ted.
Doc Jay (100/02/16 18:13:29):
Lisa and I will try to make a copy of the transcript available
upon request. Thanks for helping out Ted. (Rebecca--sorry you
got in late. Good to see you.)
brminton (100/02/16 18:14:24):
Curt, I hope I didn't come across to strong or to negative to Ted
on this issue. But I can be as strong willed as he is with my
point of view.
rcory left the chat room. (100/02/16 18:14:47)
cniehaus left the chat room. (100/02/16 18:14:52)
tnellen (100/02/16 18:15:56):
before I go, printing alone delays most info in the least for
distribution to schools by 3 months. we go to sites where
numbers are changing while we are there.
and then the cost. the net is the way info will be distributed
and paper for archive, not for its disemination.
heck i read the NYTimes on line and if I want a hard copy I go to
the library and photocopy or print from web. I have access to
every newspapeer in the world. even in NYC the UN can't even
provide hard copy at the timem of printing.
also our bookrooms can't hold all the lit I can acces son the
anyway, it's been fun
tnellen left the chat room. (100/02/16 18:15:58)
cmscholt left the chat room. (100/02/16 18:17:10)
Doc Jay (100/02/16 18:17:14):
Brent--you could even be stronger willed next time if you want.
I am glad you took a stand. Bye everybody. Send me names of
more people we are reading about in the Dushkin Reader that we
might invite into the VU for a chat.
Doc Jay left the chat room. (100/02/16 18:17:23)
Doc Jay (Curt Bonk) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 18:17:31)
zbarrett left the chat room. (100/02/16 18:18:33)
branard left the chat room. (100/02/16 18:18:36)
brminton (100/02/16 18:18:50):
I had some things typed and ready to send and erased them. I
didn't want to come across to strong. lol
ehman left the chat room. (100/02/16 18:19:17)
ehman (Lee Ehman) joined the discussion. (100/02/16 18:19:26)
ehman left the chat room. (100/02/16 18:19:57)
Doc Jay (100/02/16 18:20:12):
You win the strong man/person award Brent.
brminton (100/02/16 18:21:56):
Ok...I'm outta here.
brminton left the chat room. (100/02/16 18:22:07)
Doc Jay (100/02/16 18:22:25):
Goodbye Tina, Amy, Mike, and Brent, and other lurkers.